Annika: Good morning, my name is Annika, I’m 25 years old and I’m a consultant at the World Future Council. In this episode, I have the pleasure of speaking with Jakub von Uexküll, who is the founder of the World Future Council. Born in Sweden in 1944, he grew up in Hamburg and went on to study Philosophy, Politics and Economics at the University of Oxford. As a member of the European Parliament, he served on the Political Affairs Committee from 1987 to 1989, and later, on the UNESCO Commission on Human Duties and Responsibilities. He also served on the board of Greenpeace, Germany, as well as on the Council of Governance of Transparency International. He’s a patron of the Friends of the Earth International, and lectures widely on environmental justice and peace issues. As Jakob was becoming increasingly desperate at the development of the health of the planet, and the finite resources that are continuously being exploited, he set out to cause change: first, by creating and establishing the Right Livelihood Award, which is also known as the alternative Nobel Prize, and later, the World Future Council. And today, we listen to him tell the story in his own words.

Hello, Jakob.

Jakob: Thank you.

Annika: Thank you for being here today.

Jakob: Thank you. Pleasure.

Annika: So, it’s a real pleasure, actually, for me to have this conversation with you. And I think there’s a lot to learn for me from you. And I’m looking forward to learning from you about yourself, and also about the World Future Council. So, to start with, what’s your life’s mission in one word?

Jakob: In one word? Well, the future.

Annika: And that’s also I suppose, the World Future Council. That’s, that’s the name. And I’m curious also, why did you call it the “World Future Council”?

Jakob: Because I saw that we were, we are living in a very short, sort of short-tempered way where we are not really looking at—we’re looking at a future, which is really very threatening. And we could change it in time. But it demands a lot of very deep and profound change. And there wasn’t really an organization which was focused on that. And so, I thought we need such an organization.

Annika: Right, and we’ll come back to that in a moment. But you say, you know, your life’s mission is the future. And obviously, the World Future Council is about the concern about future generations. So where does your concern about future generations come from?

Jakob: Growing up in a very sort of remote part of Sweden, for my first 11 years, and being and loving nature. And so, the more I started readine and realizing what the threats are to nature, it seemed to me that there was a need for such an organization, but of course, you know, this came after the Right Livelihood Award. First of all, I believe that Right Livelihood was the way to live our lives. And so, I had this idea for this organization, but it was very much a challenge to the Nobel prizes, you know, so I called it, from the beginning, “the alternative Nobel Prize”. And to my surprise, instead of being sort of, rejected or ignored, a member of the Swedish Parliament arranged for us to present these awards in the Swedish parliament from the beginning. Well, we had a sort of one- or two-years period when we presented them privately, but then she brought us into the Swedish parliament. So, I realized then that there was really an interest in solutions, there was a deep discomfort with the way things are at the moment, because if you look at the world today, the Nobel prizes are really the most prestigious awards on the planet. And so, to say that they need an alternative, and to say that in Sweden—the country of the Nobel prizes—was really quite a challenge, and to my pleasant surprise, there was a response. And so, doing this for quite a few years, I always felt, you know—and then going into going into politics because I realized if you want to change things, you have to change the law, you know, “laws don’t move heart but they restrain the Heartless”, as Martin Luther King said. So that was the reason why I had the idea of the World Future Council, I wrote a book about that. And, again, pleasantly surprised that there was the response, including from the city of Hamburg where I had grown up as a teenager.

Annika: So, the Right Livelihood Award awards… the award to individuals who cause great positive change in terms of livelihood, justice, human rights issues, social issues, that are not covered by the by the Nobel Prize, right? And why did you think we need a prize for that, so why specifically, the Right Livelihood Award?

Jakob: Again, because of the existence of prizes and honours, which are very much focused on the present. And so, I realized that we needed an award, which was focused on solutions, which didn’t, didn’t fit in, you know—as I said, the novel prizes are the most prestigious prizes within the current world order. And the Right Livelihood Award is a prize going beyond the current world order. Because the current world order, which is very much the modernity is a life, a modernity which is not possible for the whole world population. And at the same time, there’s no reason why some people should have it, and some people shouldn’t have the advantages. So you basically have to have to find solutions which cover a larger range, some of these, these, the right livelihood award, some of these prizes are just take things further. But others come from a completely different world worldview, where we look at what the world needs and not what we need.

Annika: So then you founded the World Future Council. What a story! So what’s the vision for the world future council? What was it in the beginning? And is that still the same?

Jakob: I think very much so. Again, what kind of future can we have, which the whole population of the world can benefit from? And currently, we have a modernity, which is not transferable to the whole world. At the same time, there’s no reason why some people should benefit from it and other shouldn’t. So how can we spread these benefits, but at the same time, making sure that they are benefits which also benefit the planet and benefit nature?

Annika: So maybe just as a sort of basic—as a foundation for our conversation—maybe you can just give an overview of what the World Future Council is and what it does?

Jakob: Well, the World Future Council was very much set up to ensure that the future is sustainable and global. Because at the moment, as I said, you know, we have a future which is very focused on a small minority, and pretends to care about the rest of the world. But basically, it’s a lifestyle, which is not globally replicable. And so the World Future Council looks at that challenge and picked it up and, you know, wondered what kind of solutions do we need to change that? So it was it was very much filling a gap in current institutions, because there are so many who basically are built on the current present, but don’t look at it from the perspective of the future. And this is what the World Future Council does.

Annika: And its day-to-day activities and actual work, what’s the core work of the World Future Council?

Jakob: It’s very difficult to sort of say that it’s just one core activity because of course, the future is as diverse as the planet is diverse, the World Future Council membership is very diverse, and so they have different, different priorities, all within creating a sustainable future. But still, we focused on areas where there was the support, also the financial support to do the work, but also very much the interests of the most active councillors took priority.

Annika: And that’s all through policy work, right?

Jakob: All through policy work. Yes, exactly.

Annika: So it’s about finding the right policies and seeing what works, right? It’s along your maxim of “Why live with problems that we can solve”—

Jakob: Exactly.

Annika: It’s your life motto.

Jakob: Yeah, exactly.

Annika: Okay. So, when you founded the Council, that was in 2007? Well, the work before was a bit earlier…

Jakob: Before that was, we had a sort of tried to have a debate which was as global as possible, we looked at the membership, you know, how that could be as diverse as possible. At the same time, we needed people who are already in actively involved in trying to create a better future. And when we had a, by about 500-600 sort of candidates, we then started a dialogue with people in organizations who are working in the similar areas, finding out who they recommended should be actually a member because we couldn’t have more than about 50 members. And as a result of that, we got the Council, and we got these priorities. And those priorities, of course, also responded on the needs, the current needs of the planet, you know, why the future policy award, which we set up, was very much an annual prize for the area which was regarded by—including international organizations—but which was regarded by our supporters as the most urgent area to work on at that time.

Annika: Where there any sort of particular challenges that are maybe that you, well, still remember, from the very beginning of founding the council? One, of course, there’s so many interested people that would like to be part of it, so you have to narrow it down to about 50. But anything else? I mean, you’re setting up a network across the globe, of people who are working in their own field, but they also have a common interest, which is preserving our planet for future generations. Were there any challenges?

Jakob: Well, making sure that there’s common interest, which you mentioned, actually, was, was prioritized, because clearly everybody works in a certain in a different area, or many people work in different areas and see these areas as the most important one. So we had a lot of diplomatic—diplomacy was needed to make sure that we chose priorities, and also the membership of the Council of course had to reflect those priorities.

Annika: Who was responsible for that diplomacy?

Jakob: Well, the founding members, you know, I had sort of to do a lot about it. I had found that there were cases—there were some people who left you know, who couldn’t, didn’t fit into this very challenging agenda.

Annika: And, conversely, what are some of the successes from the very beginning? Because there was something that hasn’t been done before. And obviously, there’s, you know, there’s always the infancy of a project, and then suddenly, you can see it pays off. So what’s the, like a memorable success that you have?

Jakob: Well, I think the idea to have parliamentary representation of future generations, how could that be? That has been, that was a dialogue, which didn’t really exist before, and which we brought into reality. And I think in some areas, which have been—in other areas, which have been very challenging, including those for which we awarded the future policy award and where we joined in with existing campaigns that help to make them more future focused.

Annika: It’s really, it’s really fascinating. And you mentioned just a while ago that there was a good public response. Has that always been the case? So it was that straight from the get-go, that people recognized this as a good project, that merits support? Or was there a little bit of a tough work that you had to do before you got there?

Jakob: Well, no, it’s more or less, it’s more that it ran in parallel. Of course, there were journalists who thought that this is a very arrogant name. But it was interesting that this very visionary Hamburg entrepreneur, Dr. Michael Otto, he liked the idea, he came up to me when the book was published, and had and had a couple of questions about it, and then he supported it and his support, of course, was instrumental in bringing the Hamburg mayor and Hamburg parliament on board. So, without that, beginning that financial support, we wouldn’t have been able to launch it.

Annika: Yeah. And that’s super important. If you want to set up something like that, right now, what is it that you need to get together?

Jakob: Basically, I think you need to have charismatic leadership, it’s very good sort of, to say that it has to be very democratic, and everybody has to be involved, but somebody has to take the initiative.

Annika: So that’s you?

Jakob: Well, I took the initiative, but very, very quickly, I brought together, you know, a core membership. And I had co-founders, you know, Dr. Otto was one of them, obviously, who brought the whole thing into reality, because it’s very easy to talk about what needs to be done. And I’ve seen so many initiatives, which haven’t succeeded, because, you know, there have been too many internal disputes. Unfortunately, while we had some disputes, we were able to get off the ground before they before they hit. And so, we have been able to, to survive some conflicts. And some people, as I said, you know, left and others joined. But it’s very much also of trying to hit the interest of the day; what is actually most inspiring? And the fact that we had such a good—still have such a good media presence, I think has been because even, especially also media representatives have realized, that this is really an idea whose time has come.

Annika: And that probably also helped, the charismatic leadership, to get people together in the first place. And keep them engaged.

Jakob: Well, yes, I mean, I’ve never regarded myself a very, you know, inspiring, charismatic, I just tried to sort of do my job. But I realized, from the response I’ve had in the media that, you know, people have really liked, realize that this was an idea whose time had come.

Annika: Moving on to younger generations, I’d like to pick your brain on what you think about the current youth and young people nowadays, and about their activities and political participation. What do you think about that?

Jakob: Well, in general, it’s very—it is very difficult to generalize, because, of course, you know, growing up and in the world of today must be extremely challenging, and very hard, because until, until recently, you know, we had this idea that we’re going to get this global future, which meant everybody was going to live and have a good comfortable life. And now we are seeing threats. The climate threat, of course, is the worst, overreaching threat possible to imagine—I mean, it is, it’s within a comparatively short time period, where we were facing a threat to our very survival. And so of course, it’s easy to flee from that, it is easier just to sort of live in the present. But fortunately, there is an increasing number, I noticed that, you know, more and more increasing numbers, especially of young people who are prepared to take, you know, take the necessary changes to prepare to work for solutions, even if that’s not something which one would like to, you know, which one is sort of comfortable with, which one would like to sort of see, you know, as one’s life, it’s very, very challenging.

Annika: Thank you for recognizing that.

(laugh)

Annika: Yeah. It’s, it’s a bit of an obvious question, but why are young people so important for our future?

Jakob: Well, it says, our future more than anybody else’s future. And of course, you know, if struggle, and it wouldn’t really lead anywhere.

Annika: Yeah. And if that’s not an argument enough, then what would you advise young people today to do? What should they do? Why should they become active?

Jakob: Well, again, you know, what is the alternative? There is no alternative anymore, to really become part of the solution, because if you’re not part of the solution, you’re part of the problem. There’s no neutrality possible. And it’s such a challenging environment.

Annika: Do you have any other piece of advice, irrespective of maybe what they’re choosing to do with their life that you can pass on to young people today, based on what you’ve learned in your life, and looking back, etc.

Jakob: Well, not to take anything for anything for granted and take any information you’re giving any—the current leadership; don’t believe that, you know, they have the solutions, because unfortunately, they don’t. And so, you have to be prepared to challenge almost well, challenge everything, but at the same time, not just challenge it as like, like a cynic, but actually do something. eEen small solutions, you know, can grow and if you multiply small solutions, and they become big solutions.

Annika: So be constructive, be critical, and, yeah.

Jakob: Very much.

Annika: Okay.

Jakob: But at the same time, you know, be practical, realize that even one step ahead is a step ahead, you know.

Annika: Okay, oh, I’ll try and remember that. Sometimes it’s easy to think I need to make big change to be effective. And, well,…

Jakob: Yeah, but lots of small changes also become big changes. So you know, it’s, it’s very important not to be; otherwise, it’s very easy to become totally disillusioned, because, you know, nobody can save the world on their own.

Annika: As a as a role model very much for future generations, you have done a lot to try and pass on a healthy planet, to current and future generations. What’s your hope for future generations?

Jakob: Well, my hope is, is very much that I have inspired more, you know, people, and especially, you know, of course, the young people are inspired. Being seen as an example of what one person can do, and—nobody needs to replicate that—but it just shows if you can come in there and—where I had grown up in Sweden, but I hadn’t lived there for many years—and challenge, the biggest sort of famous Swedish invention internationally, the Nobel Prize, and get the response, a positive response, including from the Swedish parliament and from the Swedish media, that just shows you know, what is what is possible. So just look at, you know, don’t be too disillusioned, don’t what’s possible, you know, believe in what is what you can do.

Annika: And an anecdote comes to mind, well, it’s an anecdote of your life, because you sold your entire stamp collection to create the Alternative Nobel Prize….

Jakob: It wasn’t that, it was my job, you know. I collected but I’ve also dealt with buying and selling stamps.

Annika: So you gave up everything, basically.

Jakob: Well, I still had to make a living. So, I still continued dealing and stamps. But what I had accumulated at the time, most of that I have sold to the finance the Right Livelihood Award. But fortunately, you know, after not a long time, other donors came in. There was a Swede who won a top prize in the lottery. And he donated it, he said I don’t need this money, he donated to the Right Livelihood Awards. And then, our biggest donations have come from Germany, especially for one German lady, and it’s interesting that although it’s very much, you know, a Swedish award, most of the financial support has actually come from Germany and from the German speaking world, Switzerland…

Annika: There’s a huge lesson to be learned from that as well to be completely selfless. And I mean, completely goes against the capitalist urge and kind of pressures of the market today, isn’t it, to completely sacrifice one thing, sacrifice your assets for something that you really believe in? I think maybe is that also something that is good to know, for young people today?

Jakob: Yeah, it’s very much good to know, I think and, you know, the market is always such a, it means so many things to people you know. and we used to be critical of market of itself, its focus. We used to calculate laws, environmental laws in communist countries in the Soviet Union, for example, and saying, you know, they’re better and they were better on paper, but then we found in practice, they weren’t at all better. Now, you know, the, in fact, they just weren’t followed. They were just propaganda in the Cold War. The so called better environmental laws in the Soviet Empire, and so the market isn’t, isn’t the problem: people live in markets. But to prioritize the market is, of course, very, very, very, very dangerous. You always have to have—your goal cannot be to maximize your own monetary wealth, your goal needs to be to maximize yourself as a person. And to maximize the well-being of the planet where you live.

Annika: Which is just very much not the focus of what the markets are oriented towards today.

Jakob: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. And but it’s, it’s interesting even now, people who used to believe in markets even a few years ago, that the market would probably provide a solution, and now they’re coming and saying, we need to intervene, we need to change the framework, you know, within that framework markets can be effective, inventors can be effective. But above all, we need to set the right framework. And what does that mean? It means the right laws, and that’s again why the World Future Council was created, because I saw solutions were key and solutions were what the Right Livelihood Award is promoting, and solutions are still key. But without legal solutions ultimately, we’re not going to get there because again, you know, as Martin Luther King said, it’s not just not just enough to inspire people, you need actually to restrict those who want to don’t want to be inspired.

Annika: But I mentioned in the introduction that you were a member of the European Parliament. But then you founded the World Future Council a couple of years later, or actually few decades later, according to the timeline—why didn’t you remain a part of political life, you say that it’s actually the laws that cause change?

Jakob: It was a difficult, difficult choice, but I found that career in the European Parliament would not get me where I wanted to be, I wanted to be like a catalyst. And I found maybe I could have continued to do that also as a parliamentarian, but you know that the day has 24 hours, I just had to prioritize. And I found that I wasn’t the person who would, for a political career, it didn’t really sort of seem to fit my priorities. But I kept on—the Green Party puts me up on that list, and I was very grateful for that. But then they became a more conventional party. And hopefully now they will, you know, benefit from that—

Annika: Go back to the roots.

Jakob: —Go back to the roots, yes, especially when they get into power. But so, yeah, so I had different priorities. I couldn’t see myself putting in the energy I would have needed, I was living in England, living in London, because I found it very, it’s a very global city. And for the work I was doing, it had certain benefits. But clearly, you know, if I wanted to be a German politician, and I have a German nationality and Swedish nationality, I would have had to go back to one of those two countries, and it didn’t really sort of fit in with my life.

Annika: Okay, that makes sense.

Annika: You spoke with many people in your life politicians, entrepreneurs, advisors, business people, investors, policymakers, all of them. What would you say is the one biggest obstacle to actually implementing the changes that we know will work?

Jakob: Very much to believe in the current global system, which, of course, is the capitalist system, there is no doubt that there is too much trust in that and not enough trust and in what we can do to rectify what’s going on in the world. It’s very difficult to have a vision, which is global, because I remember the prominent German politician saying to me that, you know, look at the television is now everywhere, you know, look at the lives people need in Africa. Everybody wants a German lifestyle or an American lifestyle. And that is just not physically possible. And so, I think, you know, to make the alternatives sound attractive, which obviously means sharing to a certain extent. You know, everybody has to have the basics. But moving beyond that, and having different priorities is going is extremely hard because most people find themselves part of the system.

Annika: So is it either those with a high standard of living going back to a simpler lifestyle? Or is there a possibility and opportunity for those who have not yet attained that lifestyle to sustainably and justly reach that lifestyle that everyone else seems to already be living? Is it one or the other? And which one is it? Is there a third option?

Jakob: Well, I mean, you have to find an in-between solution, because the consumption of, of Germany or the USA, is never going to be globally possible. But at the same time making sure that people have enough, you know, to protect themselves against dire poverty, straits, against starvation, etc, there is enough. So there is enough for, for a simple lifestyle, the world has enough for everybody’s need, but not to ever this greed, as Gandhi said, you know, that is the truth, more than ever.

And that is now, the climate threat shows that the politicians who understood the climate threat, are still not daring to sort of say what it actually will actually mean. The rich are going to have to find other ways to support themselves and to build a sustainable lifestyle, rather than having more and more, accumulate more possessions, and that’s very difficult to choose to say, because it means, well, higher taxes and environmental taxes, climate taxes, in order to make sure that there is enough for everybody’s need.

Annika: So how do we go—because you say it’s the belief in the capitalist system, the belief and the priority of the market forces that are an impediment to creating positive, sustainable future just change? How can we eradicate that obstacle?

Jakob: Well, you know, as I said, before, the communist societies did not really have a good Environmental record. So abolishing the market by itself will not will not do it. The question is what framework the market operates within. The head of the International Energy Agency, Fatih BIROL who was very much a believer in the market until a

Anna: Guten Tag, ich bin Anna, ich bin 25 Jahre alt und ich bin Medien- und Kommunikationsmanagerin beim World Future Council. Ich freue mich sehr in dieser Folge des Generationen Dialoges „The Good Council“ mit Prof Dr. Michael Otto zu sprechen. Er ist Mitgründer und Ehrenratsmitglied des World Future Councils. Er ist außerdem einer der erfolgreichsten deutschen Unternehmenspersönlichkeiten der Gegenwart, hat zahlreiche visionäre Stiftungen und Initiativen gegründet. Er ist Träger des großen Bundesverdienstkreuzes mit Stern. Er ist Gründer der „UMWELTSTIFTUNG Michael Otto“ und der „Aid by Trade Foundation“. Außerdem unterstützt er zahlreiche Umwelt- und gesellschaftspolitische Projekte, beispielsweise das Flüchtlingsprojekt „Ipso“ oder im Bildungsbereich, wie „The Young ClassX“. Er engagiert sich ebenfalls im Bereich der Kunst und Musik und hält zahlreiche Ehrenämter inne. Guten Tag Prof. Dr. Otto!

Dr. Otto: Schönen Guten Tag!

Anna: Es ist für mich eine sehr große Ehre und Freude heute mehr über Ihre Arbeit ihr Leben und ihr Engagement beim World Future Council zu erfahren. Im Rahmen unserer Jugendforums „Youth:Present“ möchte ich heute mehr über sie erfahren und ich würde sagen, wir starten mit einer kleinen Zeitreise durch ihr Leben und Sie erzählen mir dabei vieles über Ihre Ansichten und ihr gesellschaftliches Engagement. Ich freue mich sehr auf diesen intergenerationellen Dialog! Aber lassen Sie uns von vorne anfangen: Sie sind bereits mit 28 Jahren in das Familienunternehmen ihres Vaters eingestiegen. Davor absolvierten Sie ihre Ausbildung. In welchem Bereich war das?

Dr. Otto: Es war so, dass ich nach meinem Abitur mich entschieden habe, in die Unternehmerlaufbahn zu gehen. Denn es war zwar auf der einen Seite für mich schon immer klar, dass ich so als Jugendlicher im Unternehmen meines Vaters immer mal gejobbt habe in den Schulferien und mein Vater sagte auch immer: „Du wirst mal das Unternehmen übernehmen.“ Aber nach dem Abitur war dann doch die Entscheidung, soll ich das denn wirklich mein Leben lang machen? Für mich wäre alternativ auch noch das Medizinstudium und der Arztberuf in Frage gekommen. Aber das Unternehmertum muss ich sagen, habe ich bis heute nicht bereut, weil im Grunde dort beide Gehirnhälften gefordert sind. Nämlich einmal das analytische und das rechenhafte und auf der anderen Seite das Kreative. Wenn man ein Unternehmen aufbaut oder neu gründet, dann ist das auch ein kreativer Prozess. Und das fand ich wie gesagt bis heute spannend, dass man eben beide Gehirnhälften hier einsetzen muss.

Und nachdem ich mich dann entschieden habe, dass ich den Weg zum Unternehmertum gehen will, war für mich eigentlich die Frage, wie beginne ich damit? Mein Vater hätte eigentlich gerne gesehen, dass ich sofort ins Unternehmen einsteige. Und da habe ich gesagt, nein ich möchte unabhängig sein. Und habe gesagt, als erstes wäre am besten mal eine Banklehre. Das heißt eine Ausbildung zu machen im Finanzbereich, das kann nie was schaden. Und das habe ich dann in München gemacht, habe dann Volkswirtschaftsstudium angehängt, promoviert. Ich habe mich aber während des Studiums dann schon selbstständig gemacht, sodass ich auch unabhängig war. Das war mir immer ganz wichtig. Und das war eigentlich so mein erster Einstieg, bis ich dann nach Hamburg zurückgegangen bin und da auch gleich in den Vorstand des Otto-Versands, wie er damals hieß, gekommen bin.

Anna: Ich finde das total spannend, dass sie seit ihrer Jugend ja eigentlich schon diese Unternehmerdenkweise in sich tragen und trotzdem sagen sie in ihrer Biografie einen Satz, nämlich: „Die Wirtschaft muss für den Menschen da sein und nicht umgekehrt. Wie denken sie denn wird das derzeit in der Realität umgesetzt, gerade auch in Zeiten der Pandemie?“

Dr. Otto: Ja ich finde das eigentlich wichtig und das ging mir auch bereits während meiner Jugend und meines Studiums so, dass ich manchmal den Eindruck hatte, dass die Wirtschaft nur an Wachstum denkt, nur daran denkt, dass sie das wichtigste Element ist und dass letztlich alle Mitarbeiterinnen und Mitarbeiter dazu dienen, die Wirtschaft voranzubringen. Und dabei habe ich immer gesagt: Die Wirtschaft ist ja nur Mittel zum Zweck. Sie soll letztendlich ermöglichen, dass die Menschen ein gesichertes Einkommen haben, dass sie einen gewissen Wohlstand haben. Das ist die Aufgabe der Wirtschaft, das heißt die Wirtschaft muss dem Menschen dienen und nicht umgekehrt! Und das war mir eigentlich immer ganz wichtig.

Ich habe den Eindruck, dass gerade jetzt in Zeiten von Corona durchaus ein Rückbesinnungsprozess da ist. Und, dass man in den letzten Jahren in der Wirtschaft zunehmen man erkannt hat, man muss nachhaltig wirtschaften und man muss letztlich auch der Gesellschaft dienen. Das war wie gesagt nicht immer so, das hat in den letzten Jahren zugenommen. Aber natürlich gibt es immer noch Unternehmen, die nur sich sehen und nur ihr Wachstum sehen.

Anna: Ja, das ist auch das, was ich von der Otto Group und von Ihnen immer mitbekommen habe. Ich bin ja selbst Hamburg geboren und aufgewachsen und für mich stand die Otto Group und Sie immer auch für nachhaltige Produktion und ich glaube auch für viele andere Hamburger ist das so das Bild, dass man von der Otto Group hat. Denn Sie haben Nachhaltigkeit, bevor es, wie sie auch eben sagten, größer wurde, zum Trend wurde, Nachhaltigkeit zum Unternehmensziel der Otto Group erklärt. Und das war schon 1986. Und fünf Jahre später wurden Sie dann noch zum Ökomanager des Jahres ernannt. Sie sprechen häufig über den Bericht des Club of Romes. Gab es daneben noch andere Gründe Umweltschutz in die Unternehmensstrategie mit aufzunehmen?

Dr. Otto: Ja der erste Bericht an den Club of Rome muss ich wirklich sagen, hat mich sehr beeinflusst. Das war ein Wach- und Weckruf. Und ich habe damals mit meinem Freund Eduard Pestel, der Mitbegründer des Club of Romes war, sehr viel über den Bericht diskutiert und ich habe immer gesagt, für das Bewusstsein war der Bericht ganz wichtig, um letzten Endes auch öffentlich Aufmerksamkeit zu schaffen. Aber noch wichtiger ist es zu handeln. Und das war für eigentlich der Grund. Man kann nicht sagen die Politik muss handeln, die Industrie muss handeln. Nein, jeder muss bei sich selbst anfangen. Jeder Bürger muss bei sich selbst anfangen aber auch jeder Unternehmer. Und das war für mich eigentlich der Ansatz zu sagen, ja dann muss ich auch beginnen. Und das fängt natürlich an erstmal an den Standorten, dass man da einzelne Projekte umsetzt bis sich das dann weiterentwickelt, aber das war eigentlich der wichtige Antrieb dazu.

Anna: Ich kann mir aber auch vorstellen, dass gerade, weil sie so früh mit dem Thema begonnen haben, wo andere Unternehmen vielleicht noch nicht so weit waren, dass Sie auch auf gewissen Problemen und Widerstände gestoßen sind. Gab es in der Zeit mal einen Zeitpunkt, wo Sie wirklich an ihre Grenzen gekommen sind?

Dr. Otto: Als ich dann 1986 praktisch nachhaltiges Wirtschaften und Umweltschutz zum weiteren Unternehmensziel erklärt habe, da gab es bei Unternehmer Kollegen natürlich schon einige, die ein wenig gelächelt haben darüber oder mich als Exoten, um es mal freundlich zu sagen, bezeichnet haben. Aber ich glaube, wenn man von einer Sache überzeugt ist, und auch wirklich sich selbst sagt, das ist der richtige Weg, und es ist notwendig ihn zu gehen, dann geht man auch nicht mehr ab von seinem Ziel. Und das gibt einem dann auch die Kraft durchzuhalten, selbst wenn man mal angezweifelt oder kritisiert wird.

Anna: Ja, ich glaube wir haben im Laufe des Gesprächs schon mitbekommen, dass unternehmerisches Handeln und Nachhaltigkeit für Sie immer Hand in Hand gehen. Das klingt immer so einfach, aber das ist natürlich superschwer umzusetzen. Wie vereinbaren Sie denn unternehmerisches Handeln und Nachhaltigkeit und warum ist es so schwierig nachhaltig zu wirtschaften?

Dr. Otto: Gut, erst einmal ist es natürlich notwendig die Mitarbeiterinnen und Mitarbeiter zu überzeugen und mitzunehmen. Dass eben alle bereit sind. Denn es gibt einige, die begeistert sind, aber es gibt natürlich auch einige, die eher abwarten oder auch etwas kritisch sehen, weil sie sagen: Gut, jetzt müssen wir schon Umsatz und Ergebnis im Unternehmen bringen und uns dafür einsetzen und jetzt noch das Thema Umwelt oder Sozialstandards, was sollen wir denn noch alles machen? Also, man muss erstmal die Mitarbeiterinnen und Mitarbeiter begeistern. Das zweite ist, es gibt hier natürlich durchaus und das ist natürlich immer das schönste, Win-win Situationen. Also wenn ich z.B. sage, unsere ganzen Importe, die transportieren wir nicht über Luftfracht, sondern wesentlich über Seefracht. Das spart Co2 ein und das spart Kosten ein. Also das sind natürlich die schönsten Situationen. Aber es gibt natürlich auch viele Maßnahmen, da muss man erstmal investieren. Da muss man erstmal die Produktion ändern. Denn ich erinnere, dass wir Anfang der 70er Jahre, nein ich entschuldige, das war Anfang der 90er Jahre, so früh waren wir noch nicht dabei. Anfang der 90er Jahre haben wir unsere Textilproduktion angefangen zu analysieren und zu gucken, was passiert denn eigentlich in jeder Produktionsstufe. Wie sind da die Auswirkungen? Und ich war erstaunt, dass es da noch überhaupt gar keine Analyse gab. Wir haben das mal mit 2 Universitäten analysieren lassen und festgestellt: In jeder Produktionsstufe gibt es außerordentlich negative Auswirkungen auf die Umwelt. Aber das Erfreuliche war, man konnte auch jede Maßnahme ersetzten durch eine umweltfreundliche Maßnahme. Und da haben wir dann z.B begonnen, in der Türkei beim Baumwoll-Anbau, wo hohe Pestizid Einsätze und Bewässerung benötigt wird, in biologischen Baumwall Anbau umzustellen. Wir haben dann begonnen, die Stoffe, die gebleicht wurden von Chlorbleiche auf ozonbleiche umzustellen. Dann erfolgte die Ausrüstung der Stoffe, dass die nicht einlaufen über Formaldehyd. Wir haben das umgestellt mit Maschinen, die natürlich die Einlaufwerte reduzieren, oder metallhaltige Farben im Färbe Prozess, durch biologisch abbaubare Farben ersetzt. Das alles war natürlich ein mühseliger Prozess. Das alles hat auch erstmal Geld gekostet. D.h. wir haben auch hier erstmal investiert, denn wir konnten die höheren Preise nicht an die Kunden weitergeben. Dann wären wir nicht mehr im Geschäft gewesen. Aber wir haben festgestellt, dass mittel- und langfristig, wenn die Produktion dann in einer gewissen Größenordnung ist, dann kommen wir auf die alten Preise zurück. D.h. es ist manchmal auch ein Investment für einige Jahre notwendig und da scheuen natürlich einige Unternehmen, sodass manche Prozesse eben nicht umgesetzt werden.

Anna: Ja, das klingt auch so, als ob die Hürden und Hindernisse, die auftauchen sehr vielseitig sind. Aber, wie man auch an ihrem Beispiel sieht, es gibt auch Lösungen. Und ich denke ein Teil dieser Lösung ist es auch, wenn Unternehmen mit Stiftungen kooperieren und, wenn Unternehmen auch von Stiftungen und deren Arbeit lernen können. Und eine Stiftung, die mir besonders am Herzen liegt und Ihnen ja auch ist der World Future Council. Und meine Chefin Alexandra Wandel hat mir erzählt, dass Sie im Jahr 2006 den Bürgermeister der Stadt Hamburg anriefen und ihn überzeugten, dass der World Future Council sein weltweites Hauptquartier hier in der Stadt Hamburg aufstellen sollte. Und so konnte mit Ihrer Unterstützung und der Unterstützung der Stadt Hamburg im Mai 2007 der Gründungsprozess des World Future Council im Rathaus der Stadt Hamburg stattfinden und dann auch in den Jahren zwischen 2007 und 2011 der Rat mit seinen 50 Mitgliedern in Hamburg tagen. Und sie sind heute nicht nur ein geschätztes Ehrenratsmitglied von uns, sondern auch ein Unterstützer unserer Arbeit. Wir setzen uns ja sehr stark für die rechte zukünftiger Generationen ein. Woher kommt denn ihre Leidenschaft für das Recht künftiger Generationen oder anders gefragt. Was war ihre Motivation den World Future Council damals mit ins Leben zu rufen?

Dr. Otto: Also, das waren eigentlich zwei Themen, die Jakob von Uexküll mir damals mitgeteilt hat, als er das Konzept erarbeitet hatte. Und zwar einmal das Thema, dass man einen Future Policy Award für jedes Jahr zu besten Gesetzgebung zu einem wichtigen Thema geben will. Und das war wirklich vollkommen innovativ. Da gab es weltweit wirklich nichts Vergleichbares. Und das fand ich insofern auch ganz wichtig, denn letztendendes kann die Wirtschaft, kann die Gesellschaft, können Ngos viele Maßnahmen durchaus anstoßen, aber der große Durchbruch kommt nur, wenn die Regierungen die richtigen Rahmenbedingungen geben. Das heißt auch die richtigen Gesetze erlassen. Und deswegen ist es eigentlich so wichtig zu sagen: Wo gibt es denn weltweit schon gute Gesetze zu einem bestimmten Thema? Und wenn man dann die besten Gesetze gefunden hat und ausgezeichnet hat, dass dann, und das macht ja der World Future Council, dass dann über Seminare und über bestimmte Kongresse Regierungen einlädt, diese Gesetze eben auch mitzuteilen, um andere eben auch zu informieren. Und darüber hinaus bekommen alle freiheitlich gewählten Parlamentsabgeordneten weltweit bekommen auch die Informationen über diese Gesetze. Also wenn ein Staat dann zu einem Thema ein Gesetz erlassen will, muss er nicht alles neu erfinden, sondern er kann schauen, was gibt es für Gesetze? Und gerade auch durch solche Seminare und Veranstaltungen haben dann auch immer wieder Staaten diese besten Gesetze übernommen. Das fand ich also schonmal eine super Sache.

Und das zweite eben die Rechte zukünftiger Generationen. Denn das ist ja ganz wichtig, dass wir sehen müssen, dass wir unsere Welt nicht schlechter hinterlassen, sondern mindestens gleichwertig, wenn nicht besser hinterlassen für zukünftige Generationen. Zukünftige Generationen haben ja nun keine stimme, also müssen wir zukünftigen Generationen eine Stimme verleihen und uns dafür einsetzen. Das war das zweite wichtige Thema und das hat mich einfach so begeistert, dass ich von Anfang an gesagt habe, also da mach ich mit, da bin ich dabei!

Anna: Ja sehr schön, sie haben es ja auch eben schon angesprochen: Unsere Arbeit ist sehr komplex, wir arbeiten zu vier großen Themenbereichen. Und ich musste ein bisschen schmunzeln, denn auf Ihrer Website habe ich den Satz gefunden: „Neugier, Bescheidenheit und ein untrüglicher Blick für das Wesentliche – Dafür steht der Mensch Michael Otto“. Sie schaffen es eben in diesem Berg von Herausforderungen in dem wir arbeiten immer das Wesentliche im Blick zu behalten. Was ist denn für Sie das Wesentliche und welchen wesentlichen Herausforderungen müssen wir uns jetzt stellen?

Dr. Otto: Also einmal ist das ja freundlich formuliert worden von jemanden. Ja, also das Wesentliche ist im Moment also denke ich am besten zum Ausdruck gekommen, wenn wir die Agenda 2030 nehmen, nämlich die 17 Nachhaltigkeitsziele der UN. Da drückt sich eigentlich alles aus, was wir im Augenblick als Herausforderungen haben und, wo wir handeln müssen. Erfreulicherweise gibt es schon einige Themen, wo wir vorangekommen sind. Ich denke z.B. an das Thema Bekämpfung der Armut. Wir haben in den letzten 10 Jahren die Anzahl der Menschen, die in Armut leben halbieren können von 2 Milliarden auf 1 Milliarde. Leider ist jetzt mit der Pandemie die Zahl der Menschen, die in Armut leben wieder gestiegen, trotzdem war das schonmal ein Schritt in die richtige Richtung. Also, es gibt verschiedene Themen, wo wir vorangekommen sind. Nur häufig nicht schnell genug, nicht stark genug. Und für mich ist ein überragendes Thema das Thema Klimawandel – also Klimaschutz. Denn dieses Thema berührt eigentlich alle übrigen Bereiche. Weil damit letzendes eine Überlebensfrage wirklich gestellt wird. Hier geht es um Biodiversität, hier geht es wirklich um Armut, um Flucht Ursachen. Also Klimawandel ist für mich derzeit das zentrale Thema, für das wir uns sehr viel stärker einsetzten, müssen.

Anna: Ja, wenn man vom Klimawandel spricht, das ist ein Thema, wie sie schon gesagt haben, das mit allen anderen Bereichen sehr stark zusammenhängt unter anderem natürlich auch sehr stark mit dem Thema Kinder und Jugendrechte für das sie sich ja auch bei uns sehr stark einsetzen. Warum sollten wir uns aber nicht nur dafür stark machen, dass die Rechte von Kindern und Jugendlichen geschützt werden, sondern warum sollten wir auch junge Menschen dazu ermächtigen für ihre Rechte selbst einzustehen?

Dr. Otto: Also ich glaube es ist ganz wichtig, dass die jungen Menschen letztendlich auch wissen, welche Probleme auf sie zukommen und wie ggf. auch Lösungen aussehnen können. Und dafür brauchen wir Bildung. Das heißt es beginnt in den Schulen, dass die jungen Menschen einmal kennenlernen: Was bedeutet eigentlich eine freiheitliche Demokratie? Wie viele Länder haben wir überhaupt auf der Welt, wo eine freiheitliche Demokratie herrscht? Was bedeutet es eigentlich nachhaltig zu leben? Was bedeutet Umweltschutz? Sozialstandards? Wie muss man damit umgehen oder was bedeutet auch eine soziale Marktwirtschaft? Denn letzten Endes ist es wichtig, dass sie diese Informationen haben, um dann auch gefeit zu sein, wenn irgendwelche radikalen Parteien irgendwelche Behauptungen in den Raum stellen. Um dann auch zu unterscheiden, ist das Etwas, was wirklich stimmt oder sind das Fakes, sind das Unwahrheiten, die in den Raum gestellt werden, nur um uns zu locken mit falschen Aussagen. Also ich glaube das ist ganz wichtig. Und natürlich: Keiner kann sich besser für seine Rechte einsetzen als die Betroffenen und das finde ich eben auch ganz wichtig.

Anna: Ja, absolut. Also ich stimme ihnen auch total zu. Ich finde auch Aufklärung ist alles. Also Aufklärung ist ein ganz wichtiger Punkt, für den wir uns auch stärker einsetzen sollten. Sie unterstützen uns ja seit 2014 gemeinsam mit ihrer Tochter Janina Özen Otto im Kinder- und Jugendrechte Team. Und sie haben eben schon eine Reihe von Faktoren angesprochen, die stark mit dem Thema Kinder und Jugendrechte zusammenhängen. Ein Thema, das derzeit ja stark in den Medien diskutiert wird und das auch wir auf unserer Agenda haben ist das Recht auf eine gesunde Umwelt. Wie hängt das für sie mit dem Thema kinderrechte zusammen?

Dr. Otto: ja ich denke eine gesunde Umwelt ist letzten Endes die Voraussetzung, um gesund leben zu können und letzendes sein Leben auch gesund gestalten zu können so wie man es gerne möchte, denn Gesundheit ist die Voraussetzung für alles. Und von der Seite ist es eben ganz wichtig zu sehen. Was passiert in der Umwelt? Wo müssen wir ansetzen? Was müssen wir ändern? Und wir sehen es auch gerade in dem diesjährigen Future Policy Award gegen gefährliche Chemikalien, dass das ein Thema ist, das natürlich auch hochgradig gefährlich ist für die Gesundheit der Menschen aber auch für die Tiere für die Umwelt. Und deswegen ist das ein Thema, das so wichtig ist, wir werden später ja auch sicherlich noch darauf zu sprechen kommen, dass dieses Thema in diesem Jahr eben auch als Haupt Thema angesehen wird.

Anna: ja genau auf jeden Fall. Wir kommen gleich noch auf den Future Policy Award zu sprechen. Ich würde vorher gerne nochmal darauf eingehen, weil wir ja jetzt hier zusammen sitzen in diesem intergenerationellen Dialog, wo ich mich auch sehr freue mit ihnen sprechen zu dürfen. Und ich merke ja auch als junger Mensch, dass es eine Änderung in der Denkweise meiner Generation gibt. Wir zunehmend unsere Rechte selbst in die Hand nehmen, dafür einstehen, dafür auf die Straße gehen. Und ich glaube auch, dass viele Politiker, viele Unternehmer einiges von uns jungen Menschen lernen können. Was glauben sie denn ganz persönlich, was sie von der jüngeren Generation lernen können?

Dr. Otto: Also ich glaube, dass die junge Generation begeistert für ein Thema ist. Das finde ich eben ganz wichtig. Und ich würde mir wünschen, dass viele Menschen auch in der älteren Generation sich so begeistern und sich so einsetzen für ein Thema und sich auch informieren. Also ich stelle auch da fest, dass die jungen Menschen immer besser informiert sind, wenn Diskussionen sind. Gerade, also ich habe ja auch häufiger Gespräche mit Vertretern der Friday fort Future Generation und die wirklich gut informiert sind. Wo man sehr zielorientiert diskutieren kann über Maßnahmen und das finde ich eben ganz wichtig. Also deswegen sich für ein Thema einsetzen, sich aber auch zu informieren, dass man wirklich in die Tiefe gehen kann, und das konstruktiv auch mitwirken kann. Das finde ich toll und das würde ich mir auch wünschen bei den älteren Generationen, dass die verstärkt sich auch einsetzen.

Anna: Ja ich hoffe auch, dass dieser Wandel noch mehr kommt, dass man auch in diesen Dialog tritt und sich austauscht, denn es ist ja nicht nur so, dass Sie viel von uns jungen Menschen lernen können, sondern wir können natürlich auch viel von ihnen und ihrer Erfahrung lernen. Deswegen stelle ich die Frage jetzt auch nochmal andersherum: Was ist denn ein Ratschlag, den sie der jüngeren Generation mit auf den weggeben würden?

Dr. Otto: Also im Grunde kann ich nur sagen, macht weiter so! bleibt weiter engagiert, lasst euch nicht beirren durch irgendwelche kritischen Stimmen, denn wenn man von einer Sache überzeugt ist, dann muss man auch den Weg gehen und das ist ganz wichtig, ansonsten wird man nichts ändern.

Anna: ja genau, also weiter für die Sache einstehen, weiter Druck ausüben vielleicht nicht nur auf die Politik, sondern auch auf Unternehmen. Die Otto Group ist ja schon dabei Herausforderungen unserer Zeit anzugehen. Nachhaltige Produktion ist wie wir erfahren haben, für sie schon lange prägend. Beispielsweise habe ich gefunden, dass 100% der Textileigenmarken ihres Unternehmens das Siegel „hautfreundlich, weil schadstoffgeprüft“ tragen. Und da kommen wir jetzt auch auf den diesjährigen Future Policy Award zu sprechen. Welche Rolle spielt denn Chemikalienmanagement in ihrem Unternehmen und wieso ist es wichtig, dass wir Chemikalien gut managen und regulieren?

Dr. Otto: Ja bei uns im Unternehmen, ich hatte es ja schon geschildert, dass wir Anfang der 90er Jahre angefangen haben in der Produktion auf umweltfreundlichere Ausrüstung umzustellen. Natürlich hat das auch viele Jahre gedauert, bis wir unser gesamtes Sortiment umgestellt haben. Also das hat bestimmt bis Ende der 90er Jahre gebraucht. Dann haben wir sozial Standards eingeführt. Auch das war ein wichtiges Thema, was dann auch wieder einige Jahre gebraucht hat, bis wir dann bei unseren ganzen Produktionsstätten entsprechende Voraussetzungen hatten. Also notwendig ist es ja, dass wenn man etwas erkennt, das notwendig ist, dass man anfängt und die Dinge weiterentwickelt. Und Chemikalien, d

Annika:

My name is Annika, I’m 25 years old, and I’m a consultant at the World Future Council. In this episode, I’m speaking with Maria Fernanda Espinosa, who is one of the Councillors of the World Future Council. On 5 June 2018, she was elected as President of the United Nations 73^rd General Assembly, as only the fourth woman to hold that office in UN history.

Maria Fernanda has more than 20 years of experience in international negotiations and multilateral issues, such peace, sustainable development, women’s rights, and biodiversity. She was a Permanent Representative to the UN in New York and later in Geneva. She has also served as Minister of Natural Heritage and Minister of Foreign Affairs on two occasions.

Today, I’m delighted to learn more about her as a person, as well as her work and mission in life, including her amazing engagement within the World Future Council!

Annika: Good morning, Maria, how are you?

Maria: I’m very well and very pleased to be with you, Annika!

Annika: Well, I’m very pleased that you are here and that you’re taking the time out of your very busy schedule. It’s a pleasure to have this conversation, thanks so much.

Maria: No, I have to thank you.

Annika: Thank you.

So let’s start with a brief look into your childhood. What was that like? And in what way has it shaped who you are?

Maria: Well, first of all, I grew up with three brothers and in that, I think was very important to shape my personality. It was I had a mother, she of course, was my role model, very independent, very strong, very much in charge, self-educated, because in my mom’s generation, and women didn’t go to university, they just got married and had children, but she prepared, self-educated herself. And she was an independent, a very successful businesswoman. And then very much in charge of our household, even though there was very much like a male accent—my dad, very traditional, conventional, and my three brothers. So the team was my mom and I and, she made sure that I had the strength, the independence, and the voice, with my three brothers, of course, but in the family and outside the family as well. So I would say my childhood was a happy childhood.

A little tough on the school front, because at the time, when I grew up, there was no idea about what today we call bullying. And at the time, we didn’t have that category. But, uh, now that I—you know, I think about the past, in a way, I realized that, yes, I was subject to bullying, because I was different: I had a lot of freckles, red hair and I was left-handed. And so I wasn’t—when you are a kid, the only thing you want is to be exactly the same as your peers and classmates. So I had this problem of writing with my left hand. And I was different, you know, my physically different because of freckles and I had all kinds of nicknames and all of that. But my mom was extremely supportive. At when I grew up, there was this idea that writing with your left hand was a bad habit, and that you need you needed to fix it and use your right hand, that was the right thing to do. And my mom was extremely, extremely strict at school saying, “My daughter’s left-handed, just let her do and don’t force her to use her right hand”. These are things that, you know, may appear unimportant, but they were, and I think all these elements shaped my personality as a as a very strong person. And, and I think it had a, you know, a strong impact on my future and in my career and life choices.

Annika: I can imagine. I would have never guessed but then you’d never know these things about someone else until you ask great, right! But what a story, looking at where you are now and who you are. And it’s a really powerful lesson for everyone who’s listening and maybe goes through the same struggles in their childhood.

So, if you look at your really successful career in politics and international diplomacy, is there anything you’d like to tell your younger self?

Maria: Well, I think one of the moments in my life when I was growing up, that were extremely important for my future is—very early, I don’t remember how old I was, my mom, something happened and she came and said, “listen, no one is going to knock on your door and tell you, here you have this opportunity. You have to fight for it, you have to shape your own future in a way”. And in I think that was so transforming in a way, I always knew that I had to fight for my dreams, and to follow my principles and values and to put all my passion and energy on the things that I wanted to do and change and transform. And when I was a child, my favorite, you know, game to play—very strange!—but I had my cousins and my brothers. So I would always organize school. And I was playing as if I was a teacher, teaching things, you know, and I think what this was also a landmark in my life in terms of being able to share, to learn, to interact, that I think was very important for the advocacy work I started very early in my career, supporting indigenous peoples on their rights and struggles; being an activist on the environmental front, in a very early stages of my professional career as well. And I started working and living with indigenous communities of the Ecuadorian Amazon for a long time. Then I went to work for IUCN [International Union for Conservation of Nature], I became the regional director and I started to really shape my international career.

But I really started, you know, touching the ground living in the Amazon, learning amazing things in worldviews, from indigenous people, especially Indigenous women. And then I started to go into different scales, working at the national level, then internationally, and that also shaped my diplomatic career. But I think it’s always important to go back to the roots to remind yourself over and over again, what are you, what is that you’re fighting for? For the dignity of people, for human security, for planetary security, for a different way of shaping our societies and the way we relate to nature, the way we relate to our environment as a global commons. And so I think that it’s a process, nothing happens by a miracle, especially for us, for women.

I think you have to craft your own life and your own future, and be very mindful that we still live in a world that is not gender equal, that has transexual inequalities, when you’re a woman from the global south, and a woman of color. And it’s, I would say, a tougher struggle. But it’s worthwhile. You have to pursue your dreams. I’m convinced.

Annika: Thank you. You touched on many issues there that I’d like to get back to in the course of the interview—fantastic teaser: inequalities, how it is being a woman on the international stage—but first I’d like to ask is, you joined the World Future Council in 2012. Why did you join the World Future Council and why do you care about the rights of future generations?

Maria: Well, 2012—I was then the Minister of cultural and natural heritage, a working a very, very hard to ensure that our policies and our interventions on the ground brought together culture and nature and that we basically, through the right policies, erased these artificial wall between culture and nature in a way and it’s strongly working to recover our heritage as a nation, and the inextricable connection between our cultural diversity with our biological diversity. So I was working on that as a minister, and I received the invitation from the World Future Council. And I really was fascinated by the work of the Council for two reasons.

First of all, this emphasis on assessing, looking, exploring at right policies for sustainable development and how the right policies, the right legislation, can really bring transformation and change in a country, but beyond a country. So, I really—this public policy, right policy approach, I really like that.

And the number two, of course, is this concept of transgenerational justice in a way. Transgenerational justice, when you are an environmentalist, it’s absolutely critical. Because this harmony between nature, the economy and politics can only happen if you think about the future generations and the legacy that you’re going to leave to future generations. So, I fell in love very quickly, with the mission, the vision of the World Future Council, and I accepted. And I’ve been so privileged that I have been re-elected as a Councillor a few times now. And now very soon, I’m going to have my 10th birthday, being part of the World Future Council family, and I feel very, very proud of being part of the family being part of the mission and being part of the transformative work that the World Future Council does every day.

Annika: Well, and we are very, very lucky to have you. So, thanks so much for all the wonderful support and the engagement that we enjoy having you! In a sentence though, in being a member with the World Future Council, what do you want to change in the world?

Maria: Well, I think that the World Future Council is a very powerful instrument to bring about transgenerational justice, especially transgenerational environmental justice. But at the same time, I think it is the right setting and the right means to make sure that we contribute, even if a little bit, to empower young people to have their own voices, to be the change makers that they want to be and that they deserve to be. So basically, this contribution, to both transgenerational environmental justice, but also to work on the right policies, policy decisions, and legal scaffolds, to build a true sustainable development for all, leaving no one behind, including the younger generations, I think that’s what the World Future Council brings.

Annika: Fantastic. So, I have to ask, though, because the challenges of our time are becoming increasingly evermore complex. Could please explain how all of these issues are interconnected: climate change, the rights of young people and women, and the destruction of natural habitats and peace? How are they interconnected?

Maria: I think, Annika, we live in a world of paradox. I am always amazed to see you know, the level of technological development that humanity has reached: the new technologies, the information and communication technologies, we are more interconnected. We know more, you know, the sophistication of science. The opportunity to access knowledge and technology. So, and yet, you know, we are unable to come up with a really holistic responses to these interconnected crises. You said it well, we are living a profound I would say, crisis of culture and civilization. Because as a society, we are unable to use what we have in our hands—in terms of knowledge, science, technology—to address and solve the critical issues, the critical challenge that humanity faces. And there is a strong connection basically, when you say the climate crisis, when you say the extinction crisis, when you say the inequalities crisis, that I often say is that these are symptoms of this dysfunctional system, in a way. So basically, what we need to fix, what we need to heal is the relationship between society, the economy, politics, and nature.

And one of the problems is the disconnection between the times of politics and the times of nature. Usually a politician, a head of State and government, you think about the next elections, you don’t think about the next generations, the future generations and other future elections. And usually, the time span for policy choices, for political decision making are four or five years. The cycles of nature are longer, they do require long-term planning, long term vision, responsibility with future generations.

And I also think that we are living a very particular moment in humanity’s life because of the Covid-19 pandemic, which has been just a synonym of loss, of fear, of uncertainty about the future. But at the same time, it’s providing us an opportunity to build forward better, to rethink the way we as humans relate to other species, to have, you know, a true profound reconciliation, with nature. And this, you know, goes through rethinking our economy, a just start thinking about why is that we are so driven by greed, and by overconsumption. And these are issues that might seem you know, philosophical or abstract, but they are critical to fixing the path that we are shaping as humans. And I am stubborn optimist as late Kofi Annan used to say, and we are here because we can change course.

Of course, we need leadership. But you know, I’m not a person that believes in these messianic leaders that are going to come and fix everything for us. It’s shared leadership! It is exercising our role as citizens, as committed and responsible citizens, young change makers, academic scientists, the private sector, and of course, governments, but we cannot leave governments alone to fix all the problems that we are facing. Co-responsibility and co- building, I think are perhaps the keywords.

Annika: You mentioned something really interesting there. You wrote a recent article where you say, I quote, “addressing today’s inequities demands a far more comprehensive and critical assessment of underlying systemic forces. The pandemic’s disproportionate impact on women, for example, is a direct result of deeply entrenched patriarchal rules and norms that perpetuate segmented structures in the home, in the labor market and in the workplace”, and it ties in with the answer you gave before. Because it’s how we structure societies, isn’t it, that really is one of the root causes for all the inequities that we’re facing. But how can we change these systemic forces?

Maria: Well, as I said, in writing that article that you are citing Annika, basically there is no you know, the golden bullet, the one kind of answer and response. I think that many things that you need to tackle at the same time. One is for example, the inequities in income and opportunity. And for that, the right to a quality education that is inclusive, that has a gender perspective embedded; a part of what we learn everyday is so important, the way you grow up, family and the way you set up priorities and values in life is important. And not only the issue of education, but the issue of preconception and of prejudice, and the things that you naturalize: you feel that it is natural to have women having certain roles in society and men having, you know, other different roles; that it is natural, when you have the same qualifications than a perfect male professional, it is okay that you receive a lower salary, it’s fine—it is not fine! And in basically, we part of the role we have as citizens is just to say no, is just to raise our voices. And the same goes when we are looking at you know the most vulnerable in society, they have to have a voice, they have to be empowered.

And let’s think about any dysfunction in society: look at climate change, and look at the depletion of critical ecosystems, look at pandemics such as the Covid-19 pandemic. Who suffer the most? Of course, women and girls because of the staggering domestic violence because of lockdowns, etc.

When you look at the other health workforce, 73% of the health workforce, are women, at the forefront. But when you look at these national COVID response high level committees—or however they’re called—80% are men. So, men take the decisions, but women are at the forefront giving the service the attention, taking care of patients, etc, etc. And when you look at what is happening with women with disabilities, and the pandemic: women and these abilities and the impacts of climate change. So, I think that we are not in shortage of data or information of understanding and knowing that there is a there is a systemic inequality, multiple inequalities, transactional inequalities that cannot be naturalized, that need to be at the forefront, when we take decisions at all levels, within our family at the domestic level, in public life, in legislation design, in public policy. In the work we do as advocates, as concerned citizens simply, and we have to raise our voices and just really be very serious about not letting it become part of the normal.

Annika: Right, and you mentioned the violence against women. That’s also a huge problem in many societies around the world. The World Future Council had a Future Policy Award on that, which you were a big part of, by organizing also a meeting of women in the embassy in Geneva, you also supported the World Future Council on the FPA on youth empowerment. Can I ask you; how can they actually help?

Maria: Well, I think that these Future Policy Awards are perhaps one of the shining outcomes of the footprint, I would say, of the World Future Council. I think it not only has a value because you acknowledge a country’s people, local governments that are doing the right thing in terms of sustainable development, but it also sets the example the good practice in order to be shared with others. And I would say when you look at the bank of the policies that have won the award, basically, you have a collection of good practices that I’m sure that have had an impact in other regions, in other places with other stakeholders that have learned from the good policies that the World Future Council is acknowledging. So basically, what I think it’s one of the footprints, of the one of the identity contributions of the World Future Council.

Annika: So, in your work with the World Future Council, you are also one of the Co-Chairs of the Commission on Rights of Children and Youth. And you were also on the panel at the launch event of the world future councils Youth Forum, Youth:Present—which this intergenerational dialogue between you me is also a part of—what do you think about the activities, and political and civic participation of young people today?

Maria: Well, I cannot even imagine a to have a collective responsibility for improving and reshaping our world, for building forward better, for reconciling and making peace with nature, without the agency, without the intelligence, without the creativity of younger generations. And sometimes, you know, in my long life and career, sometimes you worry because it’s, it’s nice to have, you know, to have a young person and to tick the box and to say, “Yes, they are part of this table, dialogue, conversation, etc”. And I have learned, and I am, every day, I am more convinced that they are fundamental actors in whatever we need to do.

If you look at the younger generations, young leaders, young professionals, they are essentially interconnected. And they are creative, engaged, committed. And basically that what we need, is the food, the precondition for transformation, for improving the way we relate to each other as humans, but we relate to our environment, to our Earth system in a way. And what is challenging, I would say, is to go from tokenistic engagement of young leaders and changemakers, to naturalize that whatever decision is taken in the multilateral arena, in national decision-making, at the local level, young changemakers, young actors have to be part and parcel of the decision making. And I know how much quality, how much legitimacy, decisions that are taken in this intergenerational form have, so with it’s a win-win. And it is a precondition for successful and lasting, wise decision making.

Annika: Do you have a piece of advice that you could pass on to young people today?

Maria: Well, basically, I would say that don’t be afraid. I think audacity drive, commitment, engagement is extremely important. When you look at young people in my own region in Latin America, you see that, unfortunately, younger generations, they don’t want to get involved in politics, for example, they are afraid, because sometimes, politics and political lives, especially for women, and young women, it’s like a scary, scary choice, a scary place. It’s tough. I’m not saying that it’s not difficult, but don’t shy away from politics from, you know, being engaged from raising your voices, from being active. And really, you know, convince yourself that you are capable of shaping and crafting a better, better world—in the present and in the future.

If it’s the world of politics, if it’s the world of academia, if it’s the world of advocacy, of civil society engagement of working in the private sector, wherever you are, you have to feel that you are changemakers, that you have a responsibility, and you need to be engaged. Especially, and here I’m speaking specially to young women changemakers, we need more women in power. I have met so many in my life, and they are really making the world shake, in a way—the Greta Thunbergs of the world in a way and the more you raise your voices, I think it the better the world and world leaders are going to respond wiser, in a wiser way I would say.

Annika: Recently, you also participated at the UN Generation Equality Forum in Paris. And in advance of the event, you spoke about the need to tackle issues, like gender-based violence and inequalities that women and girls are facing. Do you know of any policy solutions that you can share with us?

Maria: Absolutely. And here, again, this paradox I was mentioning, Annika, because we are not lacking knowledge, data or understanding what is happening. The whole Generation Equality Forum was about commemorating the landmark Beijing Declaration in Platform for Action—26 years ago. And when you go back and look at the commitments or the documents that came out of Beijing, it’s clearly you know, a roadmap on gender equality, and women’s rights. And you see that there’s a huge implementation gap. Lots of words, but very little actions. And when you look at the numbers, you see, we you know, something is fundamentally wrong.

Why is that we still have 75% of world parliamentarians are men and only 25% are women and female? When you look at the pay gap between men and women, same capacity, same background, same experience—different salary. Why is it still happening, there is a pay gap, a gender pay gap of 20%. Automatically, women earn 20% less, for the same job. You know, the arithmetic of gender inequality happen almost everywhere, in all areas of public life of the economy.

How many female CEOs are there, among the 500 biggest companies worldwide? So we still need to do, and to act to use the existing policy and legal scaffolds to really make changes and societal profound changes in all levels. Political violence against women—that’s why the younger generations are so afraid to get to be engaged into formal politics, because they know that the path towards having you know, positions of power in politics have high costs for us, for women. And I speak in a you know, with a lot of experience on that front.

And basically what are the things to do: is go from words to action, improve national legislation, we still have a big space for improvement in policy and legislation at the national level, but also be very serious about the multilateral decision-making regarding gender equality. The CSW, the Commission on the Status of Women, the existing human rights treaty bodies, CEDAW, the Convention on the Rights of Women, as well. So there is a lot of space for policy improvement, for legislation improvement, but more importantly for action.

And the Generation Equality Forum was very much geared towards acting and geared towards t

Hello, my name is Raina. I’m a 17-year-old Climate and Child Rights activist from Germany and today I’m speaking to Dr. Obama. Thank you for being here first of all. 

Dr Auma Obama 

Thank you for having me. 

Raina Ivanova  

Dr. Auma Obama is a Kenyan sociologist, journalist, author and speaker and she’s a very powerful activist who supports many projects in the east of Africa and who has successfully created her own foundation called Sauti Kuu. She’s also a Councillor at the World Future Council. Thank you for being here. 

Dr Auma Obama  

Yes. Thank you for having me. 

Raina Ivanova 

We are speaking together in in Hamburg today. How do you like the city and how do you feel? 

Dr Auma Obama  

I actually like Hamburg a lot, especially when the sun shines as it’s doing now. It can be a bit dreary when it’s raining. But usually, when I’ve been here, luckily the sun has been shining. And it’s a beautiful city, beautiful buildings, the lovely waters of the Alster. So, yes, I do love Hamburg. 

Raina Ivanova  

I think then you are a very lucky person because it rains quite often here.  

Dr Auma Obama  

Yes, I actually am lucky.  

Raina Ivanova  

The sunshine comes with you.  

Dr. Auma Obama  

Sunshine. Indeed. That’s true. 

Raina Ivanova 

,So, let’s not waste any of our precious time and get started right away. You grew up in Nairobi, in Kenya as one of five siblings and you started your education at a boarding school. How was it growing up in Nairobi and in the Luo community? 

Dr Auma Obama 

Well, I think you said I grew up in Nairobi, which is quite diverse. And the Luo community was my family, because otherwise, Kenya has over 40 different ethnic groups. So, we grew up with very many different people from different ethnic backgrounds. And in the family: Yes, it was a little family. Although, saying that, my stepmother was American, so we’re already multicultural within the family. And the interesting thing about my growing up was that I was the only girl. So, among boys, which made my upbringing quite interesting, because I often heard “you can’t do this”, “you can’t do that because you’re a girl.” Or “you must do this”, “you must do that because you’re a girl.” And that was, at first, quite confusing. And then I was a little bit rebellious. So, I would say: “Why? Why do I have to do this because I’m a girl?” “Why can’t I do this because I’m a girl?” So, my family had a little bit of trouble with me on that front because I would always resist being put into a box. 

Raina Ivanova 

What was your favorite thing about growing up in Kenya? 

Dr Auma Obama  

My favorite thing about growing up in Kenya was the fact that I grew up with a lot of space and a lot of time and a lot of friends to play with. So, there was really a balance between growing up and going to school and also playing. We really were able to go out. From the Swiss Alps where I will be out in the morning and come back in the evening, just before it got dark, and only because I get in trouble for being out. Because we really played, I really loved my childhood, we had a lot of time to play. We played traditional games with five stones, we played skipping, we played football, we went exploring in the caves near where we lived. So, it was really full of adventure and discovery and really just exploring the world as a child. And I really love that. And I think I was privileged to have that because many children don’t have that anymore because of the urbanization and also, especially in Europe, because many children grew up in apartments, so I know that I was blessed to have that in my childhood.  

Raina Ivanova  

Yeah, that sounds lovely. You mentioned your education and also Europe. So, after you finished your school in Kenya, you moved to Germany, with a scholarship to study in Saarbrucken, Heidelberg and in Berlin. So why did you choose Germany for your studies? And is there something you find particularly interesting about the German culture? 

Dr Auma Obama  

Germany was sort of a coincidence initially because when I was in high school, they offered German as a course. And I had missed a chance at French because I didn’t pay enough attention. I don’t know how it works here, but the system in Kenya was such that you had to get very good grades in two languages. And I think I wasn’t paying attention too much when it came to French. And I got the opportunity just before I finished high school, to jump in from the side and do a language and this was German. And we had a really great German teacher. So, we explored the German language we had exhibition visits to go to and I learned German with Asterix and Obelix. And that’s how I say I learned my German. So, we had so much fun learning the language. And it was really, really a great time for me. And I discovered German literature. So, I started reading a lot of German literature, because that would also help with learning the German language. And then I thought: Well, now that I finished high school, I did want to go abroad, because I wanted to have more space to spread my wings to find myself and my own identity. And I felt restricted because as a girl at home, I was constantly being told what to do and what not to do. And I wanted my own space, so I said, I want to study abroad, I don’t want to stay at home. And I started looking for scholarships. And obviously, because I had German as a background, it made sense to try and get a scholarship in a German-speaking country. At the same time, I was interested in German literature, and studying German culture, and I was lucky enough to get a scholarship. So, I ended up in Germany, like you said, in Saarbrucken, to learn the language properly to sharpen up, because it wasn’t as good as I thought it was when I got here. And then I did my master’s in Heidelberg, and my doctorate in Bayreuth, before I then went to Berlin to study at the film school. So, I did a lot of learning, I was really what they’re calling “Ein ewiger Student” in German, which is a lifelong student, and I still am. 

Raina Ivanova  

So, you mentioned that you studied in film school in Berlin. What else was your study focus? 

Dr Auma Obama  

I think, through all of what I did by studying in Heidelberg, or learning the language in Saarbrucken, or even in Bayreuth, and then find and then finding the film school, what really drives me is communication and telling stories. And I was always looking for a way to be able to tell my story, and tell the story of the African continent, and then tell General people’s story, to make people connect, to interact with each other, understand each other. For me, it was really important I did a lot with the idea of being different. Being different is nothing to be afraid of, being different is actually enriching your life. Diversity is something that we need to strive for. And it’s an opportunity to learn, it’s an opportunity to grow. It’s an opportunity to enrich yourself and your surroundings. So, I think that’s what always drove me. Whether I was trying to do it through public speaking, whether I was trying to do it through teaching, whether I was trying to do it through making films and telling stories or writing books, it was always the motivation behind what I did: communication and exchange and integration. And at the same time, celebrating our differences, too. 

Raina Ivanova  

I can imagine that that might have been difficult for you moving to Germany as a young woman, do you want to share something about that? 

Dr Auma Obama  

When I was just a little bit older than you, I was 19 when I decided to leave. And it was interesting, because when I was trying to get my scholarship, because I was the only girl, and I was very close to my father, I thought that my father wouldn’t let me leave. I had this impression: oh, he won’t, he’ll decide in my life what I’m going to do with it. And he’s going to stop me from doing because that was my own decision. I looked for my scholarship by myself. So, I actually left without letting him know so I snuck out of the country. I ran away. My mom knew but she didn’t tell him, she was sworn to secrecy. So, for me, it was an adventure from beginning to the end, in that I left without everybody knowing I was going, it was quite unconventional. And so, I started off my life in Germany fighting the fight for my rights. And I think I kept that fight up till today. 

Raina Ivanova 

So, you lived in Germany, and also in the UK for a few years, right. And now you have returned to Kenya, where you also helped to set up the Sports for Social Change Network, which helps to introduce girls in particular to sports as a means of improving their social situation. Why is it especially girls’ rights that you are passionate about? 

Dr Auma Obama  

I think I’m passionate about the rights of all young people. That is definitely. I tend not to discriminate, but the focus on the girls is really because we don’t want them to be left behind, yes. The tendency for girls is that if you have a situation where an initiative has been created, or activities are happening that involve boys and girls, the girls will always take one step back and let the boys go ahead, and the boys will take the position. We know it in life, you are a young woman, you’ll experience it much more, I’ve experienced it quite a bit. Because men are not shy, whether they are competent or not. They’re not shy about taking the lead. And what we’re trying to do is make the girls also not shy about taking the lead, be brave, just try their luck be out there, be upfront. And that’s what we try to do. And that’s why in the Sports with Social Change Network that we created at the time, it is about promoting this, to make girls also start using sport just like boys, just like men do, to improve their confidence to make them have more self-esteem and to realize that being a girl is not a limitation. Being a woman is not a limitation. It’s just a fact of life. Before you’re a woman before you’re a girl, you’re a human being and as human beings we’re equal. So that’s what I was trying to promote. And that’s what the whole program was about. 

Raina Ivanova  

That sounds very impressive. And a few years after that, in 2010, you started your own foundation: Sauti Kuu. What does Sauti Kuu mean, and why did you start the foundation? 

Dr Auma Obama  

Sauti Kuu means powerful voices. And I started the foundation because, actually, I worked for a while with international organizations, e.g., Sports for Social Change. And one of the problems I always had was that many organizations, not just this one, are donor-driven in the sense that they are funds-driven. So, an activity can be done, a program, a project, and it will be lasting, maybe three years, five years. But this is because of the funding that is available. And very many times the funding is available for that period. And you work with young people, you work with a local team. And as soon as the funds are finished, the whole project just stops, it’s like – to me – falling off the edge of a cliff. And this really disturbed me because we were working with children, and when you’re working with a 10-year-old, if the project is only a three-year-long project, then the child is 13. When the project then stops, then what happens to this child, if the child is from the slums, you have not actually even scratched the surface of their life, you may have made a small dent, but you haven’t actually made that much of an impression. And they go back into the slums. And they fall into a bigger slum, because now they’ve tasted the possibilities of being appreciated, of moving forward or being active, all these things, and suddenly, there’s nothing there. So, they actually go backward and fall into a situation that is even more helpless and hopeless. And this disturbed me a lot, because even with a five-year program that 10-year-old is only a 15-year-old, not even old enough to even go into an apprenticeship somewhere, or even learn a trade somewhere because they should still be in school. And this disturbed me a lot, but it’s very hard to change big organizations and the way they work. It’s, for me, less personal. And even the fundraising is less personal. It’s very distant. It’s project-based, project-based, as I said, project funds-based and not individual-based and not beneficiary-based, in my opinion. So, parallel to working within this international organization, I would pick up these young people and start collecting them and working with them around own things that I was doing. And actually, in the end, I said “Well, if I’m already doing so much on the side on my own to keep these young people still active, to keep an eye on them, and try and keep the project alive like a skeleton type of support for them, why don’t I just do my own thing?” And also, another motivation was the fact that I wanted to work in the rural area, which at that time, few organizations worked in, because the rural, young person, the rural child with regards to being supported in a project-based situation whereby you assist them to improve their lives. There are very few organizations, and they’re disadvantaged. Especially in my own community where there’s a lot of poverty, and a lot of a false sense of not being able to look after your own life, not being able to cope financially by the provision based on ignorance and not knowing how to work with locally available resources. So, I saw a gap that I felt needed to be filled. Also, because with this, I wanted to show that programs have to be run in such a way that at the forefront are the beneficiaries, they must never notice as there’s no money, there must always be continuity. If you struggle in the back struggle in the back looking for funds, whatever. That is the problem of the operation, the problem of the organization, but the beneficiary must, especially with children, it must be continuous. And they must always be able to access the services that you’re giving. So, the fundraising has to be done differently. And it has to be rigorous, and it has to be sustainable and long-term. And we actually managed to make this happen at Sauti Kuu. So, the foundation works in such a way that the beneficiaries stay with us over the years. They grew up with us. But in the background, we have a system whereby we’re constantly fundraising, and we have a system whereby we tried to fundraise for unrestricted funds. So, the program always continues. It is not project-based we call it ongoing program activities. It is program based and not just project-based, we do have restricted funding projects. But our core work is with the ongoing programs that go on all the time. And the young people have sports, young people have drama, they have art activities, they have tuition, they are working in the gardens, because we agriculture, they have many different activities that they do ongoing, that are not just based on one project, and it doesn’t end after three years, and then they, we have to send them home, we never send our children home. 

Raina Ivanova  

That sounds amazing. How many children are in the program currently? 

Dr Auma Obama  

In our books, we have about 500, because we’ve been around for ten years. And what happens is that because they grew up, they go to Nairobi, or they go to university, and they’re not always there. So active participants, we have about 250. But we will say once a Sauti Kuu young person, always a Sauti Kuu young person. So, in the holidays, they come back, and they take part in activities when they’re older, they become interns with us, some of them have been employed by us. So, there’s a lot of continuity. So, you see the same faces again and again and again. I forgot to mention that the parents are very strongly involved. So, we have the children involved. And then we have the parents because you can’t go into somebody’s home, work with their children, and do not involve the parents, because then you’re actually violating their space. So, what we do is, we get the parents involved, but you have to be a parent, you have to have a child with us. So, we have programs for the parents, and the children participate in those programs, whether it’s creating a kitchen garden, or at present, what we’re doing is building energy, save a hut that involves a stove attach, so they start not cutting down the trees and use less wood. So, we do all these things with a kid, children are always involved, so that they learn from what we do and participate in creating those spaces and those initiatives that we do, but the parents are there so that the parents open doors and make it possible. So, we create, together with the parents, a platform for the children to improve their lives by doing different activities be it in economic empowerment, be it in personality developm